The benefits of intermitten fasting for woman

most hunger is actually just people who

are constantly writing the glycemic

response curve and they're constantly

spiking and dropping their blood sugar

and so they're getting low low blood

sugars they're getting insulin spikes

insulin makes you hungry you know so if

you're constantly pulsing insulin

throughout the day with sugar you're

getting hungrier because you're eating

food that is making you hungrier right

and on top of that we get thousands of

messages of food all day long to eat and

that activates the dopaminergic systems

in our brain the hedonism pathways the

pleasure pathway is through the wanting

and the liking of food and that can make

you think you're hungry even though

you're really just you just want the

food or you just like the way food

tastes right and this is why we're

eating a multi-course meal you're easy

you're able to easily eat more food

because of different foods tasting good

continues to activate that pathway and

so it's not that you actually

necessarily have room for all this food

it's that it's a novel experience all

right hey friends welcome to this week's

episode of a human podcast this is your

host Geoffrey Wu I had another great

conversation this week with my good

friend dr. Molly Maloof who's not only

the head of medical science at Sun OH

intelligence a continuous glucose

monitoring startup but also a private

doctor for prominent folks in Silicon

Valley after our last conversation with

Molly episode 55 about half a year ago

she began to experiment with

intermittent fasting we touch upon a

number of aspects of fasting its effects

on the gut microbiome the feeling of

empowerment one gains over food as the

body gets adapted to fasting and Molly's

n equals one fasting experiences and

experiments as a woman this is a great

discussion that elucidates the

frequently asked question how does the

effects of fasting differ between men

and women I hope you all enjoy this

episode as much as we did recording it

let's get started great to have you back

dr. Molly thanks so that's where to call

you dr. Molly but I know right now that

you earned your medical degree there

it's true so the last time you're on the

show is five months ago and

has happened since then I know that you

were just starting a sign out the time

can you miss Kalidas learning company

and obviously a lot has happened yeah

the last five months for you guys what

has happened for us at human where our

ketone esters finally now launch of the

world and now you've been experimenting

with that so Kay talk about that yeah I

know you also been traveling a lot so

what's new what have you been up to oh

my gosh so I think around five months

ago I was just kind of getting

interested in fasting and still was

quite skeptical but also very curious

and as I've been doing just so much

research in continuous glucose

monitoring and glucose metabolism I had

this um you know hypothesis that okay

maybe if I fast it'll lower my fasting

glucose because over the last year I had

changed my nutrition and I'd lowered my

postprandial glucose so after meal

glucose pretty dramatically and I

dropped my hemoglobin a1c a whole point

from like five point six to four point

six but I still had like a missus

through diet through diet okay but I

haven't really implemented fasting yet

and I was really curious about it and I

wanted to see what would happen to my

fasting glucose if I started fasting and

I was thinking okay first principles it

would make sense that if you would fast

that your fasting glucose would just go

down like why wouldn't it go down and

over the last two months I started using

the f0 and I've been sort of chronicling

it on my Instagram and going from

intermittent fasting I mean first of

what I did was I did a month on keto

which I didn't really feel awesome on

that month however I did get really what

well fat adapted so that made doing

intermittent fasting a lot easier for me

and then from intermittent fasting for a

couple weeks I went into like a full

24-hour fast and then I went into like

36 hours than 48 hours that 52 and 63

than 72 and I it just got easier the lot

like the more fat the more I fasted the

easier it got I became better friends

with one of your investors Phil Libin

who basically like brainwashed me into

believing that fasting would change my

life and

I actually totally believed believe him

now because uh in a lot of ways I think

you know after doing I mean I read I

read jason Fung's book the ultimate

guide fasting or the complete guide to

fasting I'm such a fangirl of him at

this point he's just like such a hero

I'm trying to get him to advise on oh I

actually need you to send an intro to me

for him um yeah so fasting has like sort

of it sort of came from a challenge of

wanting to see what happened what would

happen to my fasting glucose and not

surprisingly it's gone down pretty

dramatically but um where did started or

you it was it was like hovering around

like 89 or so and now I've gotten it

down to like 80s like early 80s so like

today

um I'd eaten a bunch of food for

breakfast and it was still only 83 okay

I was like that's what it was pretty low

carb but still like I had enough I had

enough carbs in the breakfast for it to

have gotten higher so I I actually think

my metabolisms been changing your

glucose control is really really good

it's gotten really good and it's also

just kind of amazing how by doing

continuous glucose monitoring and then

also doing ketone monitoring and also

doing finger prick my ring I'm starting

to be able to predict what my blood

sugar is and I kind of know like oh this

is what it feels like to be like 50 and

also have ketones you know um I've been

doing tons of experimentation with

different types of fasts and different

types of fasting aids and then just

doing research on you know what's the

science behind what would be the best

type of fast for different goals and so

I'm working on my own sort of like

succinct version of the complete guide

to fasting and really like what's

scientifically backed four different

lengths of fasts and yeah I'm kind of

like a full-on fasting cult convert I

think that's actually a good point that

you bring up there's these like broad

rules around a 16-8 or a 36-hour fast

yeah

but they're you should really take into

context what your goals are hmm

what your initial body composition is

okay your percent agree my fasting

protocols really changed since um

marathon training yeah I like I'm doing

a lot shorter fast on exercise yeah

because you don't want to get too low

body fat I mean this is something that a

lot of people need to think about

especially women in particular because

we are not the same as men and

we have been combing through the

literature I've been trying to find

research on female hormones and fasting

yeah and I'm coming up with very little

information on this because it just

doesn't exist like if it existed I would

be able to find it and I'm not I'm

fighting a little bit of data I'm

finding some animal data on Ramadan yeah

yeah I mean but to think about Ramadan

fasting public scented fast is that

romanov casting a is mostly isocaloric

most people are that meaning that most

people are eating the same amount of

calories they're just eating them at

night

they're not drinking water and most the

time it's it seems to not affect

metabolism that much you seemed like

it's kind of like a null mitat metabolic

you know effect which is interesting

because like i haven't seen many many

studies showing any harm from and I'm

fasting but I also haven't seen a lot of

improvements in health right cuz you're

kind of having like a 12 14 hour fast

and window it's like not even just

eating at night and there's really a lot

of evidence suggesting that circadian

rhythms actually do we're kind of

programmed to put on fat and weight if

we eat at night on a purpose right

because like if you think about

evolutionary biology it would make sense

that if you spent your day hunting and

then you spent your evening maybe either

if you had a fire cooking and eating the

food and not eating very much of it like

any kind of any type of food you had at

night like you were probably trying to

store that because you knew that you

didn't know what your next meal was

gonna be so there's some great research

coming out on circadian rhythms and I

just don't think that like I that ramen

investing necessarily is good or bad I

think it's a religious practice but my

own personal experience is with hormones

in for keto in particular is I did a I

did a um while I was doing that month on

keto I was doing a urine hormone

menstrual rhythm test where I was doing

multiple urine samples throughout the

course of a month to track my hormones

and then just like be clear like what

was your macros on a keto I was eating

less than 25 grams of carbs a day net

carb net carbs and I was testing for

ketosis and I was pretty much in ketosis

most the month okay like above 1.0 mm

old yeah yeah um it wasn't nearly as

high as fasting

ketoses I would get into but it was it

was still generally hovering about

legitimate eating Quito yeah

and this was a part like a first time

actually tracked everything in like

measured everything and and it was it

was interesting but I also wasn't um I

wasn't at a major calorie deficit so I

wasn't necessarily losing weight this

month I else a little bit of water

weight but but I was pretty pretty

surprised at like how my estrogen and

progesterone levels went lower and so I

started thinking a lot about what is a

fad what is ketosis is telling your body

and really it seems like ketosis is

telling your body that you're in a

famine because typically when our

ancestors were exposed to fat metabolism

it was when they weren't when they

didn't have access to food right right

or you were Eskimos right so you're like

eating fat to stay alive and it seems

like to me to me my hypothesis is that

when you when you send those signals to

your body as a woman you're kind of

saying hey like resources need not go to

fertility right you should probably be

trying to stay alive right now

and so survival I think will always

trump fertility and if your body thinks

it's in a survival mode then it wouldn't

it would make sense for you to have an

effect on your hormones now at the same

time just thing I do believe that there

are a lot of women who have insulin

resistance and have tried keto ketogenic

diets and have actually improved their

ovarian health because they've reduced

that insulin resistance and overall

improved their their body's metabolism

so it's again it's like where are you

beginning in terms of your metabolic

health and where do you have to go so

like I am starting out with like a

fairly well toned metabolites metabolism

and then you put it into ketosis and

then you put it into fasting and now

like I'm I'm actually really curious to

know like how my hormones are gonna

change because of this and I'm also just

curious to know like what's the best

schedule for me because eventually I do

want to have kids right but you know I

do like feeling leaner in the summer I

don't mind feeling a little bit softer

in the winter because it's a hibernation

mode right yeah but I think we we need

to start doing large scale studies on

human metabolism and fasting to

understand what's the best dose for

everyone cuz like we

that too much food is bad for people

okay and I know that like I have a

family history of Alzheimer's disease of

cancer of what else root arthritis

hypercholesterolemia and hypertension

and guess what well you what you don't

have fasting improves all of those

things like I have a list of like 40

different things that fasting does for

your body and those are pretty amazing

things that can happen from just

producing food intake so those are the

diseases that are the top 10 killers

right like heart disease OMERS cancer

like these arthritis like I already have

celiac right so I already have one

autoimmune disease and it's really

common for people without immunity to

have more than one right and so like if

I can actually improve my my immune

system through fasting like this is

gonna be part of my life now like

question is how much for what dose to

keep my hormones healthy what's that I

won't go on starvation mode in like fast

for seven days and legs just drop out

your hormones right yeah it's like

what's that balance exactly and like

well so this is the coolest thing that's

happened to me um I

before starting fasting was not able to

eat dairy easily alright so I go to

Israel recently and you asked earlier

about where I've been traveling I go to

Israel and I go to Lebanon and I'm

eating foods out there and I've been

fasting on the way there I fasted during

every plane trip I took on this trip I

took I played I played took flight over

there and then I went to Israel for a

few days Frankie

then I took a flight to Cyprus fasted

went to Lebanon still fasted and then on

the way back through Iceland on a

layover I was fasting so I fasted about

four or five days on this whole trip out

of two weeks and um and the funniest

thing is is that I'm in Israel and I'm

kind of like not listening letting

myself go because I'm actually eating

healthy but there's a lot of dairy and

their and their food there and I don't

you normally eat dairy but I ate dairy

in Israel and I was just like totally

tolerating it with no digestive

complaints at all and so I started

learning about how fasting affects my

artisan tolerance well I just started

learning about how it modulates

microbiome so fasting I mean like I'm

this is a lot of this is preliminary

animal studies but there's evidence to

suggest that fasting actually improves

the health of your microbiome in a

pretty significant way

and first of all you're not exposing

your gut to food for a while so it's

giving some time to heal if you have any

problems

second of all probably reducing

processed carbs which fosters a seraph

warm microbiome bacteria that's not sure

out the wall

yeah I mean like I think everyone would

benefit from from just like not eating

as much sugar and breakfast many carbs

but at the same time like I read this

study in SOL recently that it was their

seller nature but basically they took

two animals two sets of animals one they

gave ad libitum feeding so whatever they

wanted and the other one

they basically fasted every other day

and then they took another group of mice

that were that were bred without a

microbiome and they transplanted the

microbiomes of both groups into two sets

of these new mice and they found that

the same clinical endpoints the same

reductions in cardiovascular endpoints

like hyper like on high cholesterol like

glucose metabolism abnormalities they

found the same effects in the mice with

in with the transplants that were the

every other day fasted mice and then the

mice that were eating whatever they

wanted which had the worsen endpoints

with that high cholesterol they had

gained weight they all these bad things

that happened to them through mice that

got those micro biomes had the exact

same thing happened to that so I think

that um like one of the big questions

that's coming coming from all this to me

is like are we gonna be able to develop

therapeutics based on the micro biomes

of people who are fasting that we can

just give to people through pills and

maybe give them the benefits of fasting

without having to actually do the fast

that's interesting I mean I think

there's a probably so many targets of

how fasting it works right like I think

it affects micro bomb obviously sure

exit Apogee right there's something with

just a core metabolism but that's an

interesting end point of fasting yeah I

do micro biome and there's reminds me of

a conversation I've had recently with a

French is Isaiah who literally fecal

transplanted himself oh so he who was

because oh he he had a friend with Mike

apparently really good GI and he hits

he's been struggling with GI issues

through his life and he literally like

purified the

of this friend how did he do that okay

what did he do to it I think you just

like capsulize though no this is the

thing like I I actually had on this guy

yeah what did he take antibiotics yeah

you took a full antibody plus Troy isn't

very good microbiome whoa and

transplanted until they matched it

successfully matches and then what

happened after that I saw like this yes

great that's amazing so this the

craziest thing about this whole world of

microbiome transplants is what's really

depressing about it is that it's

actually incredibly hard and very very

challenging to get a microbiome

transplant from a doctor yeah like I

just read a year for one of my clients

trying to get her on microbiome

transplant and it finally finally we got

it done but it's what I would have to

contact first of all you have to have

like a team of doctors okay you have to

have a poop sample from a lab that's

allowed the clinic like you have to

clinically like contact a lab that had

collects poop samples essentially and

you have to call it basically develop a

relationship with them to get that

sample sent to the doctors who will then

insert it through colonoscopy if you

have Crohn's disease there's there's

argue argue and stuff like which way you

would want to get it and started and so

in this patients case they wanted to do

it through the colonoscopy mostly

because that's only where the insurance

would pay for it like they wouldn't pay

for it any other way so she had to go to

the hospital be sedated and have this

inserted into her yeah and it to me it's

just like really did it like why why

would have to take that much time and

effort like if this is something that

somebody can just do at home you know

he's a pretty experienced bio hacker but

yeah I mean your risks for sure you

didn't get your you need to get like we

actually tested her partners stool and

because we wanted to see like maybe it

would be easiest just to get it from him

right he had the exact same makeup as

she did because they lived together it

makes us which is so fascinating as well

always some are diet

exactly yeah yeah was interesting was

that you were basically doing a pilot

study on yourself of how fast the

effects female hormones right yeah so

I'm not you Chris what I was looking at

is more information on this boy I think

it's an interesting topic that I think

is important topic because most of the

fasting studies are done in men as

you're referencing

and only just for fastening just most

clinical sites are done on men yeah and

like American Western men period just

think it's like there's less variables

and there I don't know for whatever

reasons is easier population the sample

from yeah

I don't know and I think hopefully in

the future we can affect that and and

have a more diverse population from

which to run clinical trials but it's a

different coverage to be had sure um I

think what I think was interesting was

that there is some confusion around

woman in fasting and like how much does

urine hormone levels correlates of blood

serum levels Jones I imagine there's

obvious some inhalation there there I I

so I moved to urine hormone testing for

convenience

mostly because um and also because I

really like this company called

precision form up recession elements

most functional doctors that I really

really trust are using precision

hormones or zrt labs to do really

convenient home your in testing and

hormone testing and so they correlate

pretty well and I mean the the key is is

like do you trust the company are they

giving you information that's actionable

and like they're good customer service

in case you have questions and so um

like I still do blood testing and

because it's the standard yeah but then

on top of that for the it's really hard

to do blood testing for the the

menstrual rhythm and so because of that

it's just easier to pee on a piece of

paper and try it and to send it in yeah

but I think they correlate very well now

the interesting thing was is over the

last month when I said basically as two

months I started to ramp up ever since

that keto experiment I started ramping

up fasting yeah and this last month like

for the previous month my cycle was like

shorter than it's ever been

right and so that was interesting right

and I don't know if that was it like if

that came from the fact that I was

traveling a lot which is stressful you

know or but usually when I'm stressed

out my cycle is longer so I was kind of

like what is this about and in the

second time the second this last month

uh I was wearing a glucose monitor and

like the previous month my glucose

monitoring was like pretty darn normal

the entire time

his last fast that I did I did to three

day fast two weeks in a row that might

have been too much for my system to

handle and it was during my luteal phase

so my right before my period and this

last week when I was wearing my

continues class monitor I said on a

retreat right maybe not the optimal

place to get refeeding because like I

basically had all the access to food the

people were making us and I broke some

of my big rolls right so I'm going from

here I'm going from like ketosis to like

ad libitum

eating rate and like notches us then

like easy to make I didn't eat pasta but

we I definitely we definitely made like

pumpkin pancakes with with brown rice

flour which I never eat flour of any

kind unless it's like nut flours and

that's even still very rare right and

and then um and then like I hadn't

checked my glucose monitor until the

next day and so I'm actually what a

night first eat I think I have some like

tortilla chips and some granola and like

some salad and some like so whatever was

laying around I was just like should go

was so my shirt went so I first of all

you're not supposed to go from ketosis

to carbs like that your body doesn't

want to do that because you're

physiologically insulin resistant right

yeah so I hadn't been paying attention

to my glucose monitor and I also was a

slightly stressed from the drive I'd

worked for hours on the drive and then I

it was an unconference and so I started

giving a lecture on fasting right after

this ever after after eating yeah and so

the next day after breakfast when I had

those pancakes that I made which were by

the way amazing but like I never do that

I never eat pancakes with like reps or a

rice flour um I looked at my monitor and

I'm like oh my god this is bad 1:58 okay

so it was a 187

after these pancakes I went outside did

three did thirty minutes of yoga dropped

it to 107 in 30 minutes we just come on

back so above 125 fastest is considered

type-2 diabetic

fasting but I wasn't fasting or anyway

post pretty pretty a 1 140 generally is

considered to be like but that's how I

Lauren's test which I basically had done

yeah but I was hovering around like you

know pre-diabetes range for diabetes

right like one of these sounds real

hi but like the cool thing was is that I

caught it yeah I was only thirty minutes

of an exposure and I basically dropped

it 80 points from yoga yeah and I'd

measured it from my finger prick as well

just make sure that it was accurate

because I when you see a glucose monitor

you have to understand that Lucas

founders are imperfect yeah and so

oftentimes I'll see it like a spike

after a good carb after fasting and then

I'll be like oh it'll check it with my

finger stick and double check to make

sure that's not abnormal and I've seen

changes as much as like 30 points

differences yeah so I was like okay is

this as high as it I think it is and

because I saw it because I acted on it I

was like great I know I now know that

like pumpkin rice flour is not optimal

plus honey like not good for my

metabolism especially not good at for

fast angry but um I think the thing I

learned from this experience is that

like you know you we need to be we need

to be vigilant about our blood sugars

and these experiments that we're doing

especially if you're a woman and you're

challenging your body's physiology

especially around times like for your

there are hormonal differences going on

um you know that's why I'm a big fan of

continuous glucose monitoring because

like without knowing that I could days

like if you like I was listening to some

aya your friend he's a big faster and I

was looking at her Instagram and I'm

looking at her her diet in what she eats

on feasting days yeah and she's eating a

lot of refined carbohydrates and like

she's she's maintaining a healthy weight

right but I'm dying to see what her

blood sugar looks like I'm just dying

because like I know I want to know like

is it healthy or is it not and like

feeding and fasting I think is like what

were designed to be doing as in terms of

evolutionary biology but the question is

is fast as feeding on feasting on what

it's certainly not feasting on refined

carbs and sugar right like maybe on

special occasions but on a day to day

basis like it could be detrimental to

our metabolism to be challenging our

metabolism with these types of behaviors

yeah I think you bring up an interesting

point that I think is not super well

understood which is that insulin

resistance actually increases after a

fast hmm which is like counterintuitive

but in some sense but it kind of makes

sense that your body's not used to so

easily

decreases but you can get insulin

resistant because your brain is saying

if there is sugar in my body it's coming

to me first right and so it's really

just um it your brain is doing this on

purpose

- hi fatty acids which is which is like

opposing to insulin right yeah um it

would make sense that you but I mean

you're 85 by the way when your body

breaks down fat triglycerides when your

body's breaking down you know glycogen

you know initially it's it's producing

carbohydrates from that but them and

then eventually you're you're in ketosis

and your brain is still craving sugar so

if there's any sugar in your body from

any place that's going to your brain and

you're in your peripheral tissues are

basically like trying to protect your

brain yeah and so it's not a bad thing

yeah and I think that there are people

there's like certainly the hike high

carb low fat people who believe that

fats fats are bad and fats cause insulin

resistance and you're all getting we're

all gonna die I'm a big believer that

like we should just understand what our

body is trying to do in order to keep us

alive and and also like with respect to

that be careful with how we experiment

ya know I think you also um under Lenox

I think it being a really good point so

it's the brain needs sugar and when you

are in a ketogenic state it's basically

showing as much of the remaining glucose

to your brain yeah as opposed to just

giving to your muscle and your muscles

are running out of a fact alright just

why people see weight management or

weight loss goals off of you to keep the

junk back right OSIS I think it's like

interesting it's important way to look

at it yeah we get that's a short-term

insulin resistance so your boss aren't

updated at this on sugar

yeah and your body's like have a few

hours of readapt right but that that

initial shock and have like hyeon's or

high glucose for an extended period of

time

sure yeah I mean I think that the I

didn't get another topic that used to be

talked about is like I've gotten a lot

of people messaging me on Instagram who

are bodybuilders who experimented with

ketosis and some of them some of the men

in particular have said I I started

doing keto for many months while doing a

really heavy lifting regimen and I

totally screwed up my hormones so it's

not just women like this is happening to

men as well and so sense like the

testosterone testosterone

if I were hormones adrenal hormones like

basically like I think different

hormonal systems can be thrown off from

just too much famine like if you put

your body in a family

you think about like a really lean

really muscular looking party builder

like their body fat is so low that their

body's like I'm in if that's the weakest

state of their life it's yeah it's not

healthy and you might look really cool

and you may look really shredded but

like we need to actually ask ourselves

like what is really optimal for

longevity and what's and I don't know

enough Studies on bodybuilding to know

like do they live longer do they live

shorter you know what what is the

benefit to this long-term besides

aesthetics yeah that's a good point so I

do know when people are bodybuilding

they're cutting so much water weight

about miss before the competition and

often times they say that the litter the

weakest they've been yeah our training

site yeah I think it's an interesting

competition run the role of lean muscle

tissue for glucose sure another area

that I think hasn't been discussed as

much where yeah I think a lot of people

associate lean muscle tissue as

correlated for longevity and I think

people think about that in the sense of

oh you have more muscle you're gonna

have like less prone to injury I think

less well understood point of that is

that besides your liver mm-hmm your

muscles are horse you can store glucose

yeah okay so this is really important

let's talk about what muscle you can

store more glucose so one of the things

that most people don't understand about

pre-diabetes that I think is like I want

to hammer into the world because the

science is there is that there's two

types of pre-diabetes you can have

actually technically three um there's

impaired fasting glucose as impaired

glucose tolerance and then there's

people who have both okay right if you

have impaired fasting glucose you have

hepatic insulin resistance right if you

have impaired glucose tolerance you have

impaired skeletal muscle insulin

sensitivity so if you have both then

you're kind of screwed so yeah let's

drill into it so to explain first yeah

your muscles are a sink for glucose to

go after meals right and then when

you're when your muscles fill up with

glucose and there's no and there's no

more space left for glycogen you start

taking that extra glucose and you start

taking the triglycerides and you make

you basically make fat right like you

know will like what Jonas exactly

favorite phrase exactly so whenever you

have extra glue this thing around you

right

says okay cool I'm gonna store it I'm

gonna and then oftentimes um if you do

this consistently you get fatty liver

right so if you fast what you're doing

is your first and foremost eliminating

the glycogen in your liver right when

you exercise you're eliminating the

glycogen in both of your liver and your

muscles so you're producing an insulin

sync I'm sorry you're producing a

glucose sync and you're also improving

insulin sensitivity with with exercise

and so I think because you want to

restore yeah exactly the body your

muscles want to uptake exact like one of

the best things you can do if your

fasting is also continuing to exercise

one of the worst things you can do if

your fasting is stay sedentary um one of

the problems the fasting is that it does

kind of send the signal much signal to

your body that like you don't want to

move as much because you know as much

you all gray but I have found that um so

so doing all these experiments fasting

like it makes sense that I drop into

ketosis faster when I'm exercising but

I've also noticed that like I actually

get sometimes I get even better

performance when I'm fasted which is

kind of interesting a Jewish Tonga yoga

and it's not easy but like I feel I feel

like I'm more focused and I feel like

I've got more catecholamines in my body

because I'm because like I do right and

that gives me a little bit extra fuel to

like really push into my exercise and

its aerobic not doing an aerobic like

you know you're lifting your body with

body weight but you're also doing a lot

of breathing so it is both um like

you're doing a lot of you're probably

not going like a much above like 120-140

heart rate right like I don't not not

too much it really depends on like there

are handstands that I'm doing sometimes

where like you know I'm lifting my whole

body up in my head and then arm stands

like those can be those can be kind of

trying is nowhere near is squatting like

300 pounds yeah exactly exactly um but I

I do think that most people when when

trying to hack pre-diabetes and diabetes

like a lot of doctors are like just

focus on food and food it's important

but you also you know exercise does

really improve insulin sensitivity yeah

and so and also and also just like

muscle mass turns out I was ready I was

reading a study it was either think it

was on human I think I've read studies

on both humans and animals but

extended day fasting can improve growth

hormone secretion in both humans and

animals which also can improve your ma

your body composition yeah and one of

the weirdest things I've noticed from

fasting is that even though I regain a

lot of the weight that I lose when I

start refeeding I feel leaner overall

and so I do feel like it's changing my

body composition which is kind of cool

you should get DEXA scan so that Isis

can before I started doing all this so

I'm gonna do another one

in one more month after three months of

all this yeah and yeah that's basically

what I did so I did a three month period

of weekly 36-hour fast and then like an

excited a seven day fast and it been

between there as well one weekly 36-hour

yeah what's a weekly 36-hour and then

yeah middle was a seven-day straight

water fast oh wow aggressive yeah kind

of a Phil Libin style yes and I had lost

2% of body fat percentage and gained

like one or two pounds of lean muscle

tissue Wow just like a nice combination

yeah you get leaner and you became my

muscle it's just funny though cuz

everyone's like you're gonna lose so

much muscle you're gonna lose all your

muscle if that's taken I'm like no

you're not actually in fact you might

gain muscle and lose if you can't work

out if you work you have to work out

that that's the most anabolic thing

there is like yeah you don't like eat

and build muscle you have to work out

and of course eat the game yeah exactly

totally I mean that's the thing I try to

tell people it's like it but they also

the interesting thing is like to build

if you want to build like muscle like a

bodybuilder you actually do need a

decent amount of insulin because you

need a growth growth stimulus yeah um

but if you try to lose body fat and gain

muscle and just get leaner then fasting

and exercise is great I mean you're a

great example of this I mean just seeing

you over the course of two years like

you've gotten way leaner and it's

awesome to see like your entire team

like you guys are super lean people yeah

I know it's been a fun journey just to

sort of take what we experiment with you

know actually works I mean I think we're

just actually impaired assistance yeah

this in some way yeah like if fasting

didn't work for us then we wouldn't do

it like if I just like I don't think

we're dogmatic here know maybe find out

tomorrow that fast it'll kill us

I would be like

let's not do that okay so another thing

we should talk about is like the

different types of fasting that I've

personally done with different assistant

aides so I did my first three day fast

with just tea and coffee with no cream

err just mostly I was drinking a lot of

long tea and because I was just like

kind of going nuts a little bit cuz I

was like oh my god no food this is a

this is a lot of day a lot of days they

some fun it's all about tea and fast he

nailed it like my ketone levels

skyrocketed after one like one day

mostly I think because I was drinking so

much teens so baby day two I was at like

ketones a 4.4 okay so that like you

typically would see that after a few

days yeah but it was waste fed up from

just drinking tons of tea yeah I

discovered this like milk long tea which

is like amazingly good tasting and then

also this like poo air from rainbow

market that like I'm obsessed with so

like I'm really into teas these days the

only concern I have about teas is my

doctor told me that caffeine is not

great for female hormones interesting so

I'm like I can't give it up though I

literally have a that sighs I didn't

know about that I mean this this is

something I've been reading more and

more about like how strong is that it's

pretty I think it's a fairly strong

association however I'm gonna do more

like I'm gonna do more deep research

before I come to a conclusion because

I've always I've always been a caffeine

drinker and I just how many women do I

see just walking off Starbucks all day

yeah exactly yeah so the question is is

what's the dose and then the other the

only thing I did was a fat fast because

I was like oh his complete guide to

fasting says I can have fat for her fast

and I wasn't very much it was like maybe

150 to 200 calories a day okay and I

have to say tea aisle or butter it was

coconut oil ghee um maybe why are two

nuts um definitely nothing crazy right

but I have to say that that was a far

harder fast to do huh I I think that

when you give your body any type of

calories it's it's just like wait what

you're just giving me 200 like that's it

yeah I saw my body was just like nope so

I hated that fast I was like the worst

fast I was not happy that's cuz it's

with my experience too if you're gonna

eat then your body just like specs to

actually have a real meal yeah like

are you really gonna die over 200

calories yes like if you're not fat just

fast okay and then I did a one of my

previous 24 hour fastest when I was

traveling to Israel with the ketone

esters and I'm sitting on Turkish

Airways in business class because I

decided beforehand I was gonna upgrade

because I was like I deserve this and

didn't did not realize how good their

food was going to look they had a chef

on the flight and there was like food

going back the international business is

great oh my god was ridiculous and

here's the thing the guy sitting next to

me is like this head of GE of Saudi

Arabia rightness it's these sitting

there was like eating everything I'm

watching me prick my fingers test my

ketones shrank human ketone Esther's

prick my finger again he's like what are

you doing you sick cool are you and Izzy

what her version are you and I'm just

like oh I'm doing all his metabolism

research and we started getting into

like talking about why Saudi Arabia is

just suffering so much from diabetes and

he was like you're like in the future

he's like here literally from the future

he's like this is where things are gonna

have to go because we're really getting

like our country's getting super sick no

and and I was like yeah the problem is

is that like the solution is fasting and

most people don't want a fast he's like

no we're fasting for Ramadan like we're

used to fasting like he's like you just

kind of tie in the cultural aspect of it

and make it more of like you know you

gotta figure out how to get people to

think about it from like that

perspective as well which i think is

really smart but um I I found that that

like international travel with ketones

really really different experience than

just regular fasting like first of all

the first time I did I I was actually in

your office's the first time I tried

your ketones when I was doing a 16 hour

fast right I had a pretty decent like

ketone level I think was like 0.8 or

something and I was just like what is

this stuff what am I gonna be drinking

what is this like drank your Keita and I

remember thinking this I feel like of a

video game character and I'm getting a

new life like I felt my legs kind of

tingling and I just felt like I had all

this energy that was just like well it

kind of like going for my feet to my

head and this keeps not happening every

time I do a fast with Keith Danza it's

like I get this tingly feeling in my

feet like you're getting another life

now

and it really does provide a sense of

like you know part of it is I think

psychology because like I know that I

have fuel but the politic part of his

physiology like my body is getting a

boost of ketones that frankly like makes

it easier to just and like go into that

state and I think for a lot of people

who aren't fat adapted yet this might be

the one of the few solutions that could

actually help people learn too fast more

efficiently like my personal believe is

that you need to really think about that

adaptation before jumping in a fasting

but with this I'm I'm really curious to

know like with this toll can we get

people to that state of fasting faster

and maybe can they use fasting to get

fat fat adapted maybe they won't have to

use kids genic deity I don't know yeah

no I think that's a good point and I

think as something that we're exploring

obviously a lot of our customers are

violates and performance use case but I

would say that maybe twenty to thirty

percent of our customers are using it

for a fasting tool for metabolic health

yeah right I think your what you're

describing is that when people aren't

fed at depth

didn't you have low sugar any look units

at the same time and then you feel like

shit shit you say your body's like I

like we need to eat something so yeah we

were freaking out but if you get that

ketone though right right equipment like

ten days of fasting in like 30 minutes

yeah so this was me when I first started

fasting right I would get hangry I would

be irritable I would feel low-energy and

then through you know basically when I

was in your office as a few months ago I

was like you were like you just kind of

stick with it and just keep fasting and

just try it yeah cuz you're gonna get

it's gonna get easier and I was like I

really hope you're right and then it did

and then the next thing I knew every

week I was like I can do more I can do

more than this and then to two weeks of

three days and I was like okay I think I

can do a little less but the fact that

like it's now something that I can just

be like oh if I need to fast I'm gonna

fast and it's no longer like a thing

that I worry about like it's no longer

even a question of can I do it that to

me like the the coolest thing that I

have found is the heart rate variability

improvements have you heard about this

work okay so I mean I noticed I'm

wearing oil ring yeah so I actually do

see if I'm eating earlier

so basically have a longer window before

sleeping yeah my heart rate variability

is higher hi my resting heart rate is

lower yeah it's like a more optimal

heart okay so I've been finding all this

research on how fasting improves heart

rate rate for heart rate variability

yeah and I did I put this to the test

because I started fasting and I I spent

this this year at the beginning of the

year setting all my New Year's

resolutions and I set like tons of them

and I usually get more than half of them

every year it's like really fun to

challenge yourself to in every aspect of

your life but in terms of my own like

emotional health I wanted to be I wanted

to be more even killed under stress I

wanted to figure out like how do I

maintain balance despite a bigger

workload because I knew I was gonna be

doing a lot more things than I was last

year this year I would just I had a

feeling this year is gonna be a year of

a lot of action and it has been and the

craziest thing I've noticed through

fasting is how I do feel like I can

handle more stress and and just remain

calm and I was traveling from Israel to

Lebanon which you're not supposed to do

because they are not friends right

and I I was like well I'm gonna do that

juice anyway because I'm I'm Jewish but

I'm all celebrities and I'm like no

one's gonna stop me so I go to they're

gonna like Tel Aviv and then I go to

Cyprus and then I go to Lebanon and I

get to Lebanon's border and I think I'm

already I'm like oh yeah homestretch I'm

gonna get in and the guy turns my

passport over ATC is really path he sees

not the stamp they sticker you and in

Israel most people don't realize this

but these stickers have meaning behind

them they rank your level of Zionism and

it's their stickers their own security

stickers for when you come back to

Israel oh yeah so I didn't know what

number I was but I was kind of like I'd

ripped off my previous sticker that I

just gotten and but the one that was

from before it was looking two years ago

yeah and it was only half of a sticker

so I was like I guess I could just leave

it right big mistake

guy says come with me and I was like

super hot and design ISM ranking well no

no this was Lebanon just knew that I was

in Tel Aviv

oh no not allowed to go from Israel to

Lebanon okay big no-no okay and I was

like oh they'll never know I don't get

stamped in Israel yeah so I went to this

back room and there's people that are

arguing with these border patrol guards

like you can't get this out of the

country but I'm sitting there just like

smiling and my turn my turn my app on my

phone my breathe app on my Apple watch I

start breathing deeply and I'm just like

chatting up the people I'm like yeah I

was everything Israel like two years ago

and they're kissing I needed a good

story cuz I was gonna be like yeah I was

there like two hours ago or two days ago

um and I and the guys I go look my last

name's Maloof I'm Lebanese my dad's

Lebanese my grandfather's Lebanese like

I'm just I really want to see the

country that's why I'm here and I was in

the layover before right and that's why

I got that sticker and he's like and I

was just really calm the whole time and

then he takes me to another room and the

other room was like there's a guy in a

jail cell there's a guy at a desk he's

smoking a cigarette no and there's no

windows and his flutterfly fluorescently

lit and I'm just sitting there like oh

shit and he's like okay we need to take

your statement for the military court

and I'm like shed my going to jail and I

just tell them my story which you know

I'm not a big believer in lying but if

you really like if you're in a situation

like I'm in like I think his excuse he

was about excusable and so III go look I

was in a that was this was actually a

true story I wasn't Athens a few years

ago I did do I did have a layover in Tel

Aviv I showed him my stamp so I was like

I was this is when I was there and so he

takes my statement and the guy barely

speaks English and he's using like copy

paper and they don't even have computers

it's like literally like he's

handwriting it out

he faxes it to the military court read

these fax machines and I realized about

halfway through this experience that

like the guy was on my side because I

was I look Lebanese my last name sounds

Lebanese my story you know worked out

but I'm like sitting there for hours and

typically like I think most people would

have been kind of uncomfortable you know

and I'm just like I just like took the

whole experience is like you know what

this is gonna be fine regardless of what

happens I'm gonna be fine if I have to

go home great I'll go to another country

like Americans talk about like diskant

don't in one of the cells well they left

a guy out of the jail song which was

like made me feel better yeah he was

from Paraguay apparently and I didn't

know what history I really didn't

understand why they were holding him but

about three and a half hours into this

experience we get a call and they're

like

you can go now and I'm like what do you

mean I can go they're like yeah you're

free to go I'm like yes and I just have

the best high of my life I got it got

into Beirut I had the best time but like

I learned a lot about you know um well I

can't remain calm and I honestly think

that like this wasn't this would never

have been me a year ago I would never

have been this calm under pressure and I

and the only the biggest change in my

life over the last two months was

literally fasting and so I really do

contribute I really believe that this is

contributed to like a greater

improvement in my heart rate variability

than anything else like it's pretty it's

pretty astonishing yeah I think part of

it I think from my perspective is that

it also practices discipline right like

I have mastery over your own bodies

desires in some sense yeah like like

eating is very pleasurable that's what I

just noticed you know through the

fasting experience I'd a lot of times

when you eat it's like for fun not for

actually for heroism or for because it's

not something smells good or because

like people miss people don't really

understand hunger right and really true

hunger is something that comes in waves

throughout the day with ghrelin curves

right so you get a few growling curse

throughout the day and most hunger is

actually just people who are constantly

writing the glycemic response curve and

they're constantly spiking and dropping

their blood sugar and so they're getting

low low blood sugars they're getting

insulin spikes insulin makes you hungry

you know so if you're constantly pulsing

insulin throughout the day with sugar

you're getting hungrier because you're

eating food that is making you hungrier

right and on top of that we get

thousands of messages of food all day

long to eat and that activates the

dopaminergic systems in our brain the

hedonism pathways the pleasure pathway

is through it the wanting and the liking

of food and that can make you think

you're hungry even though you're really

just you just want the food or you just

like the way food tastes right and this

is why when you're eating a multi-course

meal

you're easy you're able to easily eat

more food because of different foods

tasting good continues to activate that

pathway and so it's not that you

actually necessarily have room for all

this food it's that it's a novel

experience right and then there's also

like the emotional hunger that most

people are suffering from in our country

because a lot of people are suffering

from chronic loneliness

xiety people are using food as

medication because carbohydrates

activate serotonin and that makes you

feel better for a lot it for a lot of

people I think they're they're consuming

carbs because you know their their

cortisol might be too high that makes

you crave carbs or they're just

chronically depressed and they want to

medicate and and really like one of the

things that I've been trying to

understand more is like what's true

hunger what am I really what am I really

hungry right and also when you're really

hungry and you're fasting and you learn

to to handle that wave and you realize

that it's not a tidal wave it's just a

breaker you're like oh my god I'm a

superhero like I can handle anything

like I can I can be under a state of

true hunger and be okay and and to me

like that's an ultimately adapted human

is like I could be anywhere in the world

without food for a week if I needed to

and I would be fine yeah and that that's

actually where we want to get people to

go but most people couldn't be without

food for a few hours without falling

order so they think well that's the

thing yeah so they think I mean that was

me even a year ago it's like it maybe

not a year ago but like two years ago

for sure yeah you know I definitely we

could get hangry I definitely would feel

a little but you're gonna be like oh my

god I'm in survival mode and you have to

flip that brain switch and realize

you're gonna be fine and also you've got

enough food to eat because you have fat

in your body right and you're eating you

that fat when you're fasting you know

one thing I thought was interesting was

the benefits of having some insulin for

bodybuilding or just for exercise I

think that it's easy in a discussion

like this to go super polar again so no

arms like carbs or evil and all of that

and it's like you know I think it's

pretty well it's up there you probably

don't need eat refined sugar like you

couldn't probably remove that but

there's a role for carpets especially

for oh my god exercise I told you should

talk about that I mean I think it's like

we should find this yeah I think there's

like a nuance here I feel like you don't

get any attention if you're not just

like crazy polar okay so the political

system is happening with like nutrition

as well these days I feel great company

called meta flow that I'm I may or may

not start doing some work with them

haven't yet but I've just been using

their device as a beta tester and what

they do is they measure your respiratory

quotient and I might have mentioned this

in the previous

Podcast but I've started to use them

more and what it does is it measures the

summer yes so it blows snow you blow

into this device and you blow an oxygen

right and then it can we explain our

Cuba yeah so our Q is kind of tricky to

explain but basically the percentage of

carbohydrates and fat that you are

burning is can be determined by the

difference in they it's a difference in

carbon dioxide blow-off that you that

you create like the difference in the

oxygen you you blow into the device and

the carbon tax if you blow out and the

that ratio of I think I'm like

bastardizing this is terrible I did a

really good job on their video about

scientist but fundamentally like you

have two sources of fuel that you can

burn you can burn fats or carbs and that

Peart that the percentage that you're

burning of fats or carbs is your brush

with right portion and trays so closer

to one is car burning ratio is 0.7 it's

fat burn exactly so this device can can

tell by the carbon dioxide blow off how

much you are actually burning yeah so

what's nice about this is that it's

really a tool for assessing your

metabolic flexibility which is really

like how easily do you convert back and

forth between carb rating and pepperoni

yeah and what they've noticed in their

program is like what they'll do is

they'll cycle carbohydrate consumption

with like higher carb with Laura card

and they're having what people lose

pretty significant weight loss like 15

to 20 pounds weight loss went from just

using this device and just modulating

carbohydrates and I think that you know

obviously I'm I'm waiting to see like

they're the total numbers of what what

their success stories are and I'm also

just like I have a lot of research to do

in the space to really before I totally

convert over to like this is the future

but I think it's it's I think having it

you know having a glucose monitor is a

presets pre cellular tool for analyzing

your fuel stores it's like what's in

your bloodstream right but then post

sale at cellular is a respiratory

question it's like what have you already

metabolized and I think both of these

together is a pretty magical combination

because now we're starting to get

real-time fuel store analysis and that's

pretty astonishing

yeah those are human inch

I've been meaning to get that done I

know yeah that's interesting you can

have it in a device they know that

typically today you are doing like vo2

max times I mean literally wearing a

reaper oh yeah I'm like getting this

analyzed right let's cool it they've

come up with such a small seemingly yeah

I mean really the sensors are just

gotten cheaper yeah they've gone from

hundreds of dollars to like tens of

dollars and so because of that they can

make it something more scalable yeah so

I think one of the early early pilots of

ketone s-sir showed that your RQ is more

efficient while using ketone ester

versus other substrates this is one of

the starting yeah and so was that like

blue let down to the development of the

Kiko nest oh my god

Wow because if you actually think about

there's why is the ratio of closer to

one when you're learning carbs it's like

carp carbohydrates are more oxidized

there's more oxygens in a carbon

molecule versus a tee has a chain yes

right and ketones look more like a fatty

acid chain than a carbon molecule right

so it's an interesting substrate to be

more efficient for metabolism right and

and the thing about um I think human

health and adaptation this is this

concept of like being able to adapt and

self manage being metabolically flexible

I think is a marker of a healthy human

and there's a great paper

there's I'll set it to you and it's

called flipping the metabolic switch and

why this is important for health span

and life span and really they belief is

that the more often you can go between

car burning and then also depleting your

glycogen reserves like that in itself is

a is like really good for your

metabolism long term and it may be that

being sustained in a katatak fat-burning

state isn't good long term it may be

that that is damaging to hormones if you

do it too much right and maybe that

we're supposed to go back and forth

right or maybe we're I mean like or it's

possible that like seasonally we're

supposed to eat differently I mean

there's so much we need to learn about

like what makes for the healthiest

lifestyle possible but I think it makes

intuitive sense and also there's a lot

of papers on this now that say that we

should be tapping into our own fat

stores more often we should not be

burning carbs consistently and that's

what most people are doing and it's not

surprising that most people have too

much blood sugar in their bloodstream

yeah I mean I would respond by saying

that I think sustained keto is likely to

be

just given out all the longitudinals at

least on keto but I always say that I

think it is open as you're saying that

it's not necessary optimal like I think

I think there's a there's a pointer on

cyclical you know right no I think

that's something that I've been

incorporating yeah I know it's from like

exercise perspective like if you if you

are just eating key to your stuff now

that burst energy and like ball of the

elite athletes that we work with they

might train ketonic Li to make be more

metabolically flexible yeah but do

either like the Olympic Trials or the

games did getting a full fuel selection

well let's think about that right so if

you think about I always like use the

candle of kindling analogy but if you

have a bunch of kindling and you light

it on fire it burns real fast it's like

you're you you want that kindling in

your body you want that glycogen so you

can burn it so you can run so you can

produce power energy like our bodies are

not that like they're so complicated but

they're not right now what you know like

we don't like to make ketones it's kind

of like a little bit of rocket fuel

right like that's cool you can pour a

little bit of extra fuel onto a body and

say I'm gonna have this like extra fuel

stores but most of us you know like just

using our own fat stores for Olympic

trial that's really that's like burning

a candle it's not gonna burn fast you

want to have that fast burning fuel for

for power and what I'm trying to figure

out right now is I did deep into fitness

on continuous glucose monitoring is how

do we use the glucose monitoring tool to

optimize human human performance in

athletics and right now I'm getting so

much my evidence from type ones because

they're the ones who've been monitoring

this longest but I don't have enough

research from people who are healthy and

so you know like we're gonna have to

start doing some studies eventually on

that yeah that reminded me of point I

wanted to bring up which is that the

metabolic flexibility point so there's

been good success where diabetics are

going on keto and then reversing their

blood sugar and reducing their insulin

but yeah eat less medication but I think

there is a good interesting open

question around have they really

reversed

diabetes or secured diabetes or they

just manage the symptoms this is a good

right like as I said like yeah the less

tried to like re feed them carbs right

right like it sounds like you have

do I seem in control like except for

after a after fast-fast when I what I

didn't

yeah you know like there is evidence

that shows that after some for some

women who have already normal glycemic

control if you do fast them there can be

abnormal glucose tolerance after it but

here's the thing

does that mean I'm permanently have

abnormal LucasArts or was that a

temporary state now let's get back to

diabetes I think a lot of people focus

so much on these clinical endpoints and

measurements and less about the big

picture of what's really going wrong

with this person's health and diabetes

is not just a disease of too much blood

sugar it's a disease of a person who is

not adapting to the environment that

they're living in and by not adapting to

the environment I mean they're not

getting enough sunlight they're not

getting enough nature exposure they're

not getting enough fresh air there's

getting way too much pollution they're

getting the wrong packaged processed

foods in their bodies right there and

oftentimes like not getting enough

family and community time and there's a

lot of reasons why all of these things

contribute to abnormal blood sugar like

to me after blood sugar is just an

endpoint that's showing a person is

breaking down and it's like yes you can

treat the symptoms you can treat the

problem under like you can treat the

insulin resistance you can treat them

the high blood sugar but it's not fixing

the societal issues that are

contributing to people's health getting

you know disordered and I think the same

thing can be said about hypertension and

hypercholesterolemia like these are just

these are just markers of an unhealthy

person and these are markers that that

that show that you can be predisposed to

pathology but it's like let's look at

the big picture of society and say where

are people thriving without any of these

problems and what's different about

their lifestyles and frankly like a lot

of it has to do with how people live

their lifestyles are like I think you

eventually everyone's picked

introversion beot we all need to build

like a giant culture company oh yeah

yeah it's basically like yeah we're all

trying to do it and our various channels

right yeah you've mentioned cholesterol

have you been folding the LDL HDL oh my

god yeah let's ride story okay okay so I

guess many I'd be curious about him

become like a mature lipid ologist but

oh

curiously keager yeah on that whole

story around health high LDL might not

necessarily be Bryce biomarker well okay

so here's get your thoughts on I think I

don't know if I mentioned this to you I

don't know if I I don't think this is on

the last podcast but as I was digging

into diabetes treatments from

nutritional treatments I came across a

high carb low fat group and a low carb

high fat group right well let's not name

these groups but you know who they are

what am I was in San Diego what it was

in San Francisco and I was looking at

their numbers and their outcomes and I

was like oh my god both groups are

seeing the same drop and he looked

hemoglobin a1c and both groups are

seeing the same drop in weight in the

course of a year and I'm like what's

going on here okay like how is this

possible but then I said to myself okay

okay let's see the literature says about

both these types of diets and what

really what changes in terms of blood

markers that are problematic that they

weren't reporting well typically what

you see in the high carb low fat group

is they elevate their triglycerides

typically what you see in some people in

the high fat low carb group is you do

see some people get high LDL and I'm one

of those people

um needs to actually be a deal raises my

LDL goes up the question is is like you

know both of those are considered to be

bad and when it's according to the

American College of Cardiology

Association but should we be worried

about them

right um my personal belief is that this

is just first principles at work right

like they're like I put I have I am an

apoe4 genie like a few genes that

predispose me to being at risk for high

cholesterol if I eat lots and lots of

saturated fat the apoe4 fellas

yeah exactly and you basically anyone

with an apoe4 needs to be careful about

too many refined carbs in too much

saturated fat I don't take brain hits

it's thank God I have many professions

yeah um but um but like I haven't

experimented yet with the high carb low

fat diet I'm terrified of doing it but I

also kind of think it'd be fun to just

eat vegetables and fruit for a month and

see what happens to my body like I've

never done it before but like what would

happen what would I feel like who knows

and what I really want to know about

these two groups of people is who are

the failures and what happened to those

people like what's going on with the

people who failed

keto diet what's going on with people

who failed the carb diet and also maybe

we need to meet somewhere in the middle

and so what I'm proposing right now that

we're doing Sano we're doing some

internal studies where we're taking

people on regular diets giving them the

continuous glucose monitors for a week

just to see what happens by monitoring

their food and then we're gonna give

them a plant-based diet with some

protein mostly plant-based but with some

protein diet from a very popular

delivery company in the San Francisco

area and we're gonna see what happens

when you take a person on like a normal

type diet with standard American foods

to Whole Foods

because my theory is that part of what's

wrong with people's diets is that

they're eating all this fake crappy food

that's like not contributing to a

healthy healthy metabolism and then

maybe what's happening with these people

with different macronutrient ratios is

like they're getting out Whole Foods

right they're getting out real foods and

maybe that's why everyone's getting the

same drop in England gomen a1c and hunt

I think that's like yeah I actually

agree with that actually I think that a

large contributing factor when people

change to one of these corporate fad

diets is that there's probably eating

healthier yeah they're eating foods

right now there are rules I think there

is some interesting that's something

that I think is gonna be interesting

that the beta and discuss you know or

you know in the literature

I think there's clearly people that see

success with high carb low fat mmm-hmm

it's clearly people that see success

with the complete opposite yeah

and it's I like I think it's cheap to be

like no you're lying or you're guessing

but take either side it's like maybe

there's some genetic component to that

that we don't fully understand or maybe

both of us could work well what I think

is that is on your use case a healthy

like the thing that I'm trying to

constantly evolve my own perspectives

around and what I'm trying to do to sort

of separate myself from the pack is like

how do we move away from just so like

being so overly focused on clinical

endpoints and so overly focused on on

signaling pathways and start looking at

the macro picture of humanity and saying

like what would the most adapted evolved

human look like right how are we gonna

get to think because we're going through

a massive human evolution right now yeah

like with is with technology with all

this information with all these new

tools that we have to advance our

physiology

in our lifestyles like how do we become

a more evolved human in the future and

what does that look like it to me it

looks like how can I take whatever fuel

supply available to me by the way my

fuel I do not mean package process crap

I mean fuel real food how do I take

whatever foods available to me and

metabolizing it effectively without

having problems yeah and like to me

that's what I want to be I want to be

able to go anywhere in the world eat for

the most part any healthy whole food and

not get sick no and actually metabolize

it well and like that's um that that's

me like a superpower you know and that's

what we all should be I think we should

be striving for potentially now the only

issue with that argument is that like

the micro biomes of the food supply is

all over the world do sometimes cause

people to react differently so it would

be really cool if I could just go to

India eat whatever I wanted but I do

have a feeling that like I might get

sick still occasionally lesser potent

hasn't yet it's you know like like we

might I'd eat part of the part of these

my Americans probably do get sick when

they travel a lot is because we have

very weak micro biomes because we've

assaulted them with antibiotics for many

many years and all these all the we know

now that like a lot of these fake sugars

and these preservatives are maladaptive

to the microbiome by I would say the

probiotic food the kimchi or Sarah

fighting to getting more popular but

hopefully my own yogurt I make my own um

which I make my own vinegar now I make

my own first of all eat at your place I

mean one thing I thought was interesting

was why isn't there like full fat milk

yogurts like know what like like

everything you can get them yeah I see

that sugar though that's it like there's

so much sugar calling yogurt it's like

20 grams of sugar right yeah I just find

at Adam bite right by right market this

sheep's milk yogurt full fat that's like

amazing like totally delicious like

over-the-top good creamy and just

Incredibles to braise it at it digests

kind of expensive but really good ya

know I'm going back to your pointer on

just being metabolically flexible to be

able to consume any sort of fuel I think

that's actually I would actually a very

much agree with that

it reminds you is something that Jordan

Peterson who you guys may have heard

about yeah it speaks up he's he's

interesting because he's carnivore and

oh really a keto he's carnivore really

his daughter who were those talking with

she's pretty public around having

autoimmune issues okay and um basically

resolved it with Carnac going car like

you know they're going carnivore Wow

well so so here's the thing like I I

think that my question around all this

is like what happens to your microbiome

when you just eat meat like do you like

how do you grow a healthy microbiome

without fiber you know I think that

council that's this the counter-argument

there would be well if you eat awful

like that yeah oh yeah liver yeah me

there should be a lot of nutrients in

that yeah so you can balance it if you

actually just you know if you just eat a

hamburger meat or like sausages yeah

you're not getting that diversity within

just protein you can't really get enough

vitamins and minerals but the question

is is like are you going to grow like

like a healthy microbiome typically

likes fiber to make small change batty

assets right and that feeds that mucosal

layer right so I would be I would want

to do is still study on these people and

find out what is it what is it

microbiome look like and yes maybe

they've quelled the inflammation and

reduced you know maybe some small

bacterial intestinal overgrowth in or

whatever but the real question is is

like he's that long-term healthy and

like I would also want to measure

Jordans ferritin levels because there is

a there is a pretty significant

correlation between high ferrets and

levels and men at heart disease and so

like look I'm because I've done so much

research in nutrition and I am at the

point where I really feel like nobody

really truly understands what's correct

for humanity like I I will admit that

the not sleepy spoke anymore that I

learned the more that I don't trust

like anyone anyone but at the same time

the more that I I'm striving to like

think about the big picture and the

reality is is that if you look at um

Eskimos they're eating a crap ton of

animal foods right so I mean maybe if

he's eating healthy healthy

yeah he's evolved and he's evolving to

to consume this yeah and also like I

dunno people um there's a really great

story about this guy who survived um he

was like the sound engineer for the

Grateful Dead he ended up getting

esophageal cancer and living off of meat

for like 15 years like us meat slurry he

was like literally starving his cancer

so you know like if people it can't be

done you can't survive on this my

question is this do you want to write

like I personally love food so much but

I'm also like if I cancer what would I

try like when I go Gerson would I mean

would I go carnivore I I'm a big

believer that we're gonna have an entire

array of like diets for cancer in the

future yeah for different types of

cancer you know there's so much to be

thought about when it comes to different

diets for therapy - yeah therapeutic

Jordan because I think he has a saying

around that the goal of life if for a

meaning of life is not to just a win in

a specific game but we have a strategy

that wins to the set of all possible

games I think oh that's greatly instan

when I think about like how do you want

to carry out your life yes like so if I

you know win this one little game that

we play yeah and look but really making

you feel bad yeah we're never gonna play

a game I got it

again that's where fasting is beautiful

by the way because fasting wins in so

many cases like fasting is a strategy

that I think can help you Matt like I've

noticed that since I started fasting I

can eat a lot more of a diverse diet

yeah and maintain the same way yeah I

can actually tolerate a lot more foods

and still like you know so I can have

like a day where like I do cheat a

little bit yeah and I can recover a lot

faster

like that's to me a pretty great example

of someone who's like winning in

different environments

that's the metabolic flexibility yeah

right and I think that may be the

solution is not just have a like a 30 30

30 macro but like just swing pull you

know yeah I think it's like moving

around down to like high carb and then

you know like is your metabolism wants

to be surprised

I think it's expect I think it had

historically been surprised quite a lot

yeah with what with whatever was

available right and so that we may still

have that genetic makeup and that that

could explain why a lot of people tend

to do well when they shift their

macronutrients around they see changes

in their body composition right yeah I

think that's

it so that means somebody am to be

explored so I know that a lot of the

cyclical work of cyclical Quito or at

the buck Institute which is you know

role work out a longevity Institute yeah

doing that like cyclical Quito is just

as good as normal he doesn't I find that

by the way I think they're putting mice

on two weeks of Quito and then two weeks

of standard Western diet call and they

were living longer than standard Western

diet I think you sees very similar

studies with like every other day

fasting and animals or you know even

extended fasts and animals like you just

can live longer yeah and you know what I

love about fasting is how my skin looks

so great when I fast like I swear to God

this this this thing called you've heard

of autofluorescence we're talking about

this day yeah yeah um you can actually

measure the light output of a person's

skin and that correlates to the level of

advanced glycation end-products so the

more advanced glycation end-products at

your skin accumulates the older your

skin looks more wrinkles you get because

the more damage to the proteins in your

skin the collagen elastin right and so

what I've noticed is that with fasting I

just start seeing my skin start glowing

after a few days it's pretty cool like I

know I'm late becoming that I mean this

crazy convert but I have to admit you

guys are pretty much responsible for

this film I think there's some rhyme to

that read that Maddon is incensed I like

some people look healthier and maybe

it's a lot of fluorescence yeah I mean

you're also taking out the garbage of

your cells

you're like up regulating all these

anti-aging pathways

oh my god the coolest thing I learned

was listening to this podcast by Krista

Tippett called on being okay she was

interviewing a physicist theoretical

physicist he was talking about how time

is all relative when time doesn't

actually exist right but it's the

difference between variables and

specifically heat and so one of these

that he was saying is that basically

like heat exchange over time he he

exchanged over time kind of helps define

time right like the fact that light

weights with entropy yes exactly and so

what I'm thinking is happening when

you're fasting is you're actually just

decreasing entropy because you're

reducing heat exchange and nobody would

think about it

actually it's very simple visit physics

right and we I'm really attracted to

like beautiful elegant theories of

science and I know I'm producing less

heat when I'm fasting is I'm cold like I

know when I'm cold and I know when I'm

warm and I love how I love the feeling

of understanding what's going on so my

body and I do think that like fasting is

a way to like literally reverse the

clock into your cells by just the change

change in heat exchange that's funny I

did I didn't think about from that

should be sorry I think that's bad

that's that's a funny way to think about

it yeah well maybe I'm wrong but it

makes sense to me scientifically so I'm

gonna go with it I think this is from Oh

slowing of metabolism or then yeah but

that I mean that in itself is reduces

entropy yeah you know yeah so so we have

one of the big things are like busy 2018

so far yeah so the last time we talked

you were like I think at the end I

remember listening to the podcast you're

like wait that's is that all you're

gonna do and then after that pocket I

was like I guess I should do more things

this year so I've been so I've been

working at sano a couple days a week

I've been actually using a lot of the

learnings that I've gotten from fasting

and continuous glucose monitoring to

sort of redesign my practice around and

metabolic flexibility program which I'm

continuing to work on and will hopefully

roll out sometime this summer with like

a beta test group where what we'll be

doing is we'll be teaching people from

like a first-hand experience with

monitoring their blood sugar their

ketones their respiratory question and

and basically teaching people how to

become metabolically flexible through

different dietary changes as well as

through fasting yeah so keto masters

will certainly hopefully be a part of

that because I think that getting people

past that inflection point is really

challenging yeah and then I have been

working on developing a podcast myself

so I hope to launch that in July and

then I've been doing a little bit of

what's gonna be called I don't know yet

I don't have a good one all right I need

a name have you can help me think of a

good name like that's one of the things

that's keeping me from just from like

fully pushing it out yet but um it's

gonna have to be it's gonna have to be

good I don't know what it's gonna be

right now

so if anyone has any good ideas please

come to my in

dr. Malik oh and give me your ideas cuz

I need some and then um I done sent

emali shell I mean I was thinking that

dr. tamale show or like dr. Molly on and

then dot dot or something because it's

gonna be different on different topics

but um I have been doing some wellness

travel excursions I went to Esalen

Institute and taught a bunch of

executives all about how to plan your

life like a startup and how to really

like create systems for setting goals

for your year and really actualizing

those goals and really just analyzing

how can you make progress of improvement

in your life over time I'll be doing

that again in August and then I'm trying

to think of all the other things so um

I'm still advising a few companies and I

have you know a few months ago I was

like really getting a little burned out

from work and so I started traveling a

little bit so I did a bitch I did a

bunch of travel and now I'm kind of

getting back into the whole like okay I

need to hustle again so um so really I'm

just trying to roll out the podcast the

really I'm just working on this product

it's not o as well and like trying to

get some preliminary studies really

designed well where we what we want to

do is do we're doing accuracy studies

right now just to really prove that

we're equivalent to the existing tools

on the market and then we want to start

studying different interventions

different nutritional interventions to

see how do we how do we continue to

teach people how to lower

postprandial glucose and lower fasting

glucose and i've also developed some

products in the meantime i've developed

a skin a skin product that you know

really has like changed my skin

dramatically so I'm working on the

labeling over my next vacation in with

my family in July and then I'll be

testing this out on my community before

I actually launch a website around

selling it Mary and then I want to and

then I'm trying to say what's the secret

magic sauce or what were the it has

about 15 different oils okay

it has yes base oils it has sort of they

called bonus oils which are like they're

active oils but they're not essential

oils and then it's got some oils and

then it also has like a super hyper

potent stabilized vitamin C and then it

also has a

it has a a couple new absolutes so it's

got a really amazing smell like it just

smells like that magical and your skin

and then it has some preservatives that

are plant-based preservatives so it's

pretty pretty like though it does have

one product that comes from an animal it

has an emu oil in it which I'm gonna

replace I think with macadamia oil just

for the vegans because I know that

because they're not gonna want

animal-based stuff and then and then I'm

also trying I'm actually working on

putting a sunscreen into this because I

want this to be like an all-purpose skin

product that essentially just does

everything you needed to do for for your

your skin because I'm try to become as

minimalistic as I can as I started

digging into fertility and understanding

health I'm starting to realize that all

these beauty products that I'm putting

in and on my body are just not healthy

and so I'm trying to develop a product

that is all-purpose singular tool that

just you only will need to put this on

your skin and you're gonna be good so

that's what I'm working on

yeah I mean if I said anything about not

needing more stuff now I mean I have a

lot on your plate

it's pretty fun yeah yeah I mean thanks

very much for coming by I mean this was

actually gonna be the last podcast

taping this thing oh my god so you're

closing out this version of the human

podcast wow this era I mean honestly I I

keep on the save your podcast and just

from the very very beginning to now I'm

so impressed with just how you guys have

evolved like I love your work I'm I'm a

fangirl of human you know you guys are

great I actually doubted you oh yeah

girl moans you guys so much when I first

met you and now I'm like alright I'm

joining the club thanks so much sure

we'll have to have you on in our new

studio great in the coming month and I

think it sounds like I'm gonna have a

lot to report back on Graham yeah thanks

so much hey I know a lot of you guys

have been running in at podcast at human

comm for different questions or topics

or subjects that you would like myself

and our research lead octave Rihanna

stuffs the cover so let's actually make

a Q&A special episode to answer any and

all of your questions relating to our

own personal performance protocols our

research and backgrounds as biohackers

and scientists and business people to

you know what's going on with human you

know what products are we working on

what R&D are we working on what

customers what are the feedback from the

ketone ester how they address any and

all questions so shoot us an email at

podcast at human calm and once we have a

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thanks so much and see you next time

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